Inspecting the life and beliefs of Ann Lee, founding father of the Shaker motion and among the many few feminine spiritual leaders of the 18th century, Mona Fastvold’s “The Testomony of Ann Lee” lays naked the agony and ecstasy that knowledgeable Lee’s radical expressions of religion, making for what the director describes as a “speculative retelling” of her story, with Amanda Seyfried delivering a transcendent, tour-de-force efficiency within the title position.
Born in 1736 to a big household in Manchester, England, Lee grew up poor, illiterate, and with no formal schooling. Along with her total household sleeping in a single shared room, she recurrently bore witness to her dad and mom having intercourse, awakening her distaste for bodily intimacy. Struggling to search out her place throughout the Church of England, she as an alternative grew to become an early adherent of the “Shaking Quakers,” a sect whose teachings—together with that the physique and thoughts might be cleansed of sin by way of chanting, singing, and shaking throughout prayer periods—ran counter to the predominant faith.
Lee began preaching after dropping all 4 of her youngsters in infancy. Renouncing gender roles and the establishment of marriage, she preached a gospel of non secular purity and social equality, telling her followers to decide to a lifetime of celibacy and communal residing. The Church of England declared her a heathen and imprisoned her in a psychological asylum; following her launch, Lee and a small group of followers traveled to America, the place they sought to unfold their gospel and keep away from additional persecution.
Whereas in manufacturing on her second function, “The World to Come,” Fastvold had stumbled upon an unlimited archive of Shaker worship songs, which in flip led her to the story of Ann Lee and her utopian neighborhood. Although the Shakers are right now higher identified for his or her furnishings, together with chairs they’d usually carry on the wall when not in use, Fastvold discovered herself fascinated by Lee’s position as a feminine spiritual chief and her efforts to reimagine a distinct type of society in late 1700s America.
Lee and her followers worshipped by way of rapturous track and motion, which Fastvold dealt with by approaching “The Testomony of Ann Lee” as a musical of kinds. Collaborating with choreographer Celia Rowlson-Corridor (“Vox Lux”) and composer Daniel Blumberg (“The Brutalist”), who created unique songs based mostly on Shaker hymns, the solid and crew dedicated to a prolonged rehearsal course of, studying to mix motion with music forward of an intense 34-day shoot.
Fastvold directed “The Testomony of Ann Lee” and co-wrote it with Brady Corbet, additionally her husband and creative collaborator; the pair lately collaborated on “The Brutalist,” one other immigrant epic—a few fictional Hungarian Jewish architect, László Tóth—that mirrored on the interrelatedness of religion and trauma. Fastvold grew to become immersed in “Ann Lee” whereas nonetheless at work on “The Brutalist,” which was made on the same funds of below $10 million.
Forward of the movie’s restricted theatrical launch on Dec. 25, which expands all through January and consists of choose screenings in 70mm, Fastvold sat down to debate the commonalities she sees between “The Testomony of Ann Lee” and “The Brutalist,” the method of making this movie’s rapturous musical sequences, and the “dreamlike high quality” she at all times seeks in cinema.
This interview has been edited and condensed.
In starting to debate this movie, I’m struck by sure commonalities between László Tóth and Ann Lee, these two immigrants striving towards inconceivable goals, fleeing persecution, whilst their trauma informs their religion and its bodily manifestations. Ann suffers immensely, however this solely appears to deepen her sense of devotion.
Placing out “The Brutalist” and getting to speak about that movie final 12 months was a fever dream for me, as a result of I used to be capturing the final little little bit of “Ann Lee” in November, then I used to be absolutely entrenched in post-production; the entire time, I used to be modifying. I used to be simply engaged on the lower and in put up, whereas we have been speaking about “The Brutalist.”
Once we have been writing the movies, we wrote “The Brutalist” first and “Ann Lee” after. Brady and I each felt that it was utterly completely different, that it had nothing to do with “The Brutalist.” We didn’t see any type of connection in any respect. Whereas we have been writing it, it was set in a very completely different time interval and was a musical of kinds, so we felt it was a wildly completely different type of movie.
Then, I used to be sitting within the edit room, with a brand new perspective on “The Brutalist” from being in dialogue with individuals who had seen it and fashioned their very own minds; I used to be beginning to articulate and hone in on folks’s experiences with that movie. On the similar time, I used to be doing the identical with “Ann Lee,” as a result of that’s what one does within the edit course of; you’re simply distilling your work. Impulsively, we began to see so many parallels between the 2, right down to our obsession with chairs. [laughs]
However what struck me most was that, whereas they’re each immigrants who arrive in America attempting to do one thing fairly inconceivable, who’re pushed by trauma in some ways, they transfer by way of that trauma in very other ways. The Achilles heel of László Tóth is his ego, I’d say. That movie offers loads with that topic of the artist and their ego; in dialogue with Erzsébet, his spouse, she retains asking him why he’s letting his ego run wild—and, for Brady and I, lots of that may be a dialog we’re having about how generally you want that ego, as a result of it drives you to create one thing extraordinary, that type of unwavering perception in your self.
What’s fascinating to me about Ann Lee, the best way I interpret her character, is that she is egoless. Her religion, what drives her, is a determined want to create a distinct kind of neighborhood for others. It’s not about her turning into a well-known spiritual chief, together with her saying, “That is the regulation. You need to comply with me. That is the one approach, and you must be a part of this.”
It’s really about this concept that “I can’t mom my youngsters, so I’m going to mom the entire world. I’m going to steer them as a mom, with love, and create an area the place you might be free to be creative, so you’ll be able to create unbelievable structure, drawings, work, and music, and reside in peace with completely different concepts of equality and respect. That lack of ego is attention-grabbing to me in a frontrunner, as a result of I haven’t seen it modeled in both spiritual or political leaders.
It’s fascinating, as properly, that each characters create these monuments that can outlast them, however László’s wrestle culminates within the existence of this literal, concrete object. In distinction, Ann Lee seeks to nurture a religion, within the type of this neighborhood of like-minded people—for her, it’s extra about each day labor and lifelong devotion.
Whether or not you’re making a constructing, making a movie, or writing a e book—no matter it’s that you’re attempting to go away behind—that might be an providing to a neighborhood. I’m not idealizing Ann Lee and saying that László Tóth was flawed. They’re each extremely flawed characters in numerous methods.
The extra I checked out it, the extra Brady and I felt we have been continuously exploring this story: about attempting to make one thing inconceivable, attempting to create inconceivable issues, being a foreigner attempting to carve out some house for one thing difficult, overseas, and tough. In the long run, all of it melts right down to our personal metaphor of attempting to make artwork that’s radical on this world, in some way. [laughs]
As you’re telling a brand new story, as a filmmaker, you hone in on the identical factor time and again, from completely different angles, however in the long run, I don’t actually thoughts that. I don’t thoughts that with authors; once I return to writers, it’s as a result of I need to reside of their world. I need to be in that universe for some time. I need to be in no matter that high quality is; it doesn’t matter that the story isn’t totally new, you understand, proper?
I hold feeling drawn to discover religion, maybe as a result of I used to be raised in a secular family. I don’t subscribe to any spiritual neighborhood; I’m not a part of that. However there may be such an intense spirituality in making artwork. What is that this insanity that drives you to work for 17 hours within the rain, and why are all these folks following you, doing this, recreating a dream you had? Is it insanity, or is it some type of spirituality?
This private tragedy Ann experiences, within the lack of her youngsters, is a turning level in her life, within the movie, and also you dramatize it by intercutting six or seven completely different scenes into this dance sequence; there’s such anguish and ecstasy in “Lovely Treasures.” Inform me about that problem of telling that a part of the story by way of montage and motion, the mix of which supplies rise to this dreamlike environment.
The filmmaking that I gravitate towards probably the most has a dreamlike high quality to its language. Proper now, I’m within the metropolis of David Lynch, and I grew up on the earth of Ingmar Bergman. These are filmmakers who’re spinning tales out of dream logic. There’s at all times a component of that; I’m striving to search out this manner for it to really feel like a reminiscence or a dream, the place you’ll be able to break these guidelines of realism however guarantee, on the similar time, that it’s extremely grounded.
This explicit sequence was extremely advanced to shoot. The movie was shot in 34 days, however this sequence took up almost 4 days of our shoot. In time, it’s a brief part of the movie, however it’s additionally 9 years of her life, and it’s the core of why she makes the alternatives that she makes, and the way she finally ends up the place she does. Your empathy for her actually lies within the sequence, so it needed to work for me to go on this journey together with her.
It was difficult, additionally, as a result of I needed to be very frank together with her physique: with the births, the sexuality, the intimacy she has together with her infants, with the breast milk and the blood—all of these items wanted to be actual and truthful. Fortunately, I had Amanda Seyfried as my associate and Christopher Abbott as properly; they have been so beneficiant and open with their our bodies, and so they understood the significance of being that frank. We have been very aligned with that.
Amanda was like, “Let’s go and make some great [birthing vagina] prosthetics. Let’s have this be as actual as potential. Let’s lean into the complexity of all of it, into the enjoyment between the 2 of them, into the hopefulness, into the complexity of their sexuality.” We didn’t need her to really feel like a sufferer; she’s not, however turns into this extremely highly effective individual and presence. It rang true to me that we needed to see her within the strategy of turning into. Then, we now have this motion piece that frames all of it, and I additionally needed to shoot it in three other ways: one younger and hopeful, one very pregnant and virtually in early labor, after which one utterly carved out on the finish. And even shifting by way of these motion items was actually intense and sophisticated.
After which, on high of that, we determined to do a number of runs of reside singing. And so we began within the studio, looking for demo to rehearse with as properly. And that was laborious as a result of Amanda hadn’t skilled every little thing we have been capturing. We have been on the ground, at nighttime, singing by way of tears, by way of delivery, by way of pleasure, by way of ecstasy. Then, we introduced within the set recordings and, in the long run, we went again to the studio once more a number of instances, attempting to work on that scream on the climax of “Lovely Treasures,” that scream that’s ecstasy and agony all collectively. That was a sense we have been looking for. I may have labored on it eternally; at one level, it was like, “Pencils down, that’s it.” Nevertheless it was a really advanced a part of the movie.
One pivotal sequence that comes quickly after, set to a hymn referred to as “Starvation and Thirst,” is a very astonishing showcase for Amanda Seyfried; you’re so grounded in Ann’s non secular state, and also you witness her obtain a type of transcendence between these extremes of emotion. Was that at all times an extended take?
We shot that scene later within the schedule. At that time, we had completed a lot work collectively on discovering the rhythm between digital camera motion and efficiency. That was essential for us to see, and we labored on it a lot. I had our cinematographer, William Rexler, and digital camera operator, Sam Ellison, current through the dance and motion rehearsals with the performers, serving to discover the suitable path for every little thing.
By means of rehearsals, I had a powerful sense that this could simply reside in a single shot, however I had tried a number of different approaches within the first few takes; I used to be a little bit additional faraway from her, initially. It’s a extremely hanging piece of choreography that Celia Rowlson-Corridor created for this scene, and I used to be actually taken by it. We have been capturing, and we have been holding again to permit us to see that, however then I knew that this felt unsuitable. It’s not what that scene is about; we have to be actually shut together with her at this second. This level actually aligned Amanda and William; it’s a handheld take, however it’s so clean. He’s not anticipating her, and she or he’s not anticipating him; they’re actually shifting as one. He simply lived so superbly on this close-up together with her.
Celia, my choreographer, was in love with that one as properly, though it excluded among the motion’s magnificence. The motion is so particular as a result of Amanda had rehearsed the hell out of it; she knew what each single motion meant. That’s how Celia choreographs; each piece of motion has a really particular story to it. With this motion, she’s shedding the pores and skin off her arm; with this one, she’s feeling the place her stomach was, however it’s gone now. All of these items have such a particular narrative behind them, and it grounds the efficiency in such an attractive approach.
As we’re discussing, Ann and her followers worshipped by way of ecstatic track and motion. Your depiction of those shows of devotion is such an achievement; we’re witnessing not solely instinctual expressions however a bigger, collective non secular launch. In conceiving of and creating these sequences with Celia Rowlson-Corridor, in addition to your solid, inform me about growing what you’ve referred to as a “communal language of motion.”
That was actually detailed work. This isn’t dance, after all; it’s motion, and that motion is an expression of religion, and it has a narrative and a journey to it. I picked the actors I needed to work with. I didn’t care whether or not they have been dancers or singers. A few of them are unbelievable in movement, like Thomasin McKenzie; she mentioned, “I’m not a mover,” however then we began going into rehearsals together with her, and Celia and I fell in love with the best way she strikes, particularly the articulation of her fingers. It’s actually stunning and exact.
Lewis Pullman as properly—not a mover, however a drummer, and his mom is an unbelievable dancer. They have been working prematurely, and his physique language and his approach of shifting have been thrilling as properly. Christopher Abbott has extra of a motion background as properly, so he would deliver that in; then we had Jamie Bogyo, who was a West Finish performer with a really completely different strategy to motion. By means of storytelling, the concept that each piece of motion has that means, there’s a language for what grounds all people.
Going round—myself, Celia, her assistant, and Daniel Blumberg, who was additionally on set the entire time—and continuously speaking with our background performers was important in these bigger items of choreography. You can’t have one individual within the nook simply go loopy, not having a objective; that ruins the entire shot. You want the sense that all the performers have a narrative; even when we have been saying that, “that is an improvised second,” all of our key solid knew—as a result of they’d completed all of those workshops and rehearsal intervals prematurely—you may select from these 5 completely different gestures. Nonetheless, you must decide to it and know what it means to you within the second.
The specificity of that creates an intoxicating feeling of 170 folks having a second and releasing one thing from their our bodies, letting go of this ache and giving anyone else energy and love, or pulling energy into their our bodies, or shaking off this extremely painful sense of disgrace. With that specificity, unexpectedly, everybody begins shifting collectively as one organism. It’s thrilling to be there within the room and expertise it. It feels such as you need to take part.
How did you and William Rexler, your director of images, take into consideration the position of the digital camera in these sequences, to shoot all mandatory protection however convey this sense to the viewers of being swept up within the ecstasy of worship?
We may have been hanging again and observing the motion, which is tempting while you see a extremely compelling piece of motion. We had to withstand that urge and as an alternative say, “We would like the digital camera to be an energetic participant on this piece of motion, to be swept up and swirl round with everybody else—to actually be collaborating.”
There was lots of rehearsal time required to choreograph their digital camera motion, as properly. We have been capturing on movie, in scenes lit with a whole lot of candles; it’s extremely advanced to execute, however it’s very thrilling too, when all of it comes collectively. I like enjoying near the sting of darkness, as a result of that feels so proper for the interval. However you’ll be able to’t eff it up, since you obtained 200 dancers, a whole lot of candles, and one shot at getting it proper. [laughs]
I’ve to ask the problem of filming the sequences on the ship that brings Ann Lee and her followers throughout the ocean — eruptions of motion and hymn in confined areas, the congregation’s religion examined by this storm rolling in. It was breathtaking for me to see these scenes, to be taught that you just had solely two days to movie them aboard a picket crusing ship, and to expertise the sense of scope you achieved. How was any of that potential?
It was actually, actually laborious. We looked for a 12 months for a tall ship as a result of we knew we couldn’t construct one. We tried to discover, “Can we construct bits and items of it?” We completely couldn’t. Can not. “Ann Lee” had the same funds to “The Brutalist,” round $10 million; we didn’t have the cash to try this, however we couldn’t lower it both. What have been we going to do: lower to them being out of the blue in New York? No, that was inconceivable, so we needed to discover a path ahead.
Brady and Andrew Morrison, one in every of our producers, have been each so devoted to discovering options with me; it was simply actually thrilling. We have been looking in every single place. We searched in Malta, we searched in South Africa. There are solely so many of those tall ships on the earth, and apparently, all of them race in a regatta collectively in the summertime, so it was laborious to discover a boat that will allow us to shoot on it. And it needed to be a tall ship, as a result of that’s what they might journey on again then.
So lastly, we discover this ship, the Götheborg of Sweden, an attractive duplicate of a ship from the interval, down to each element of the ropes and sails, however it has to remain docked as a result of it wasn’t seaworthy on the time. It was, and had sailed to China from Gothenburg, however we additionally couldn’t afford to deliver one other boat out subsequent to that boat; often, for filming, you’d take a ship out to sea after which have a comply with boat with all of your results, gear, cameras, and such. That was inconceivable for us, on our funds.
As an alternative, we put a rain tower on the dock, after which I couldn’t even afford the crane, which is pricey, so we have been rigging an arm off the rain tower. There have been moments of true creativity wanted to realize this spectacular, grand second within the movie. I discovered a number of angles that I may shoot on this ship that seemed nice, particularly as soon as I managed to get the sails up; we needed to get particular folks in to try this, as a result of there are just a few folks on the earth who know easy methods to set the sails on these interval ships. So many issues needed to come collectively, and if one in every of them had failed, the entire thing would have gone sideways.
After all, a ship at sea is meant to maneuver backward and forward, however this one didn’t, so I needed to have the performers sway left and proper, to provide each single one in every of them a rhythm to maneuver to, after which counter that motion with the digital camera. [laughs]
We took a smaller-period ship out to the open sea, with giant waves, which we may do, and it was actually intense for everybody, however it made for an attractive a part of the film. I constructed a tiny little inside set that I may flood, as properly, in a barn in Hungary. You flip a nook, then you definately’re at the true boat; then, you flip a nook, and also you’re on the different ship; then, you flip a nook, and also you’re again in Hungary; and then you definately’re within the inside of this actual boat. That sequence wanted to be pieced collectively so delicately.
At instances, it was so low-rent. There was a person with a bucket of water, throwing it at Amanda off-screen—it was ridiculous. [laughs] However filmmakers would do that 50-60 years in the past, even 100 years in the past—they might make movies this manner. I considered that. There’s mannequin work on this movie as properly, and lots of different old-school movie methods. In some way, the challenges and constraints of my funds are merely causes to get actually creative.
Inform me about discovering that headspace, going into an epic manufacturing like this with such finite sources. Filmmaking is an act of creation, and it’s a leap of religion; as you acknowledged earlier, the narratives of “The Testomony of Ann Lee” and “The Brutalist” might be learn as reflecting your individual wrestle to make radical artwork. However how inextricable do you are feeling that the movies you’ve made are from the best way through which you’ve made them?
It’s undoubtedly linked. I’ve a philosophy about how I need to make these movies. For Brady, Andrew, and I, it’s right down to how we work with our collaborators. There isn’t any separation between departments. We’re all working collectively from the get-go. All of us transfer into one another’s workplaces and areas, and all of us begin round our kitchen desk. That sense of neighborhood is crucial to us. We by no means change the scripts or compromise on the “what,” solely on the “how,” so it’s about discovering paths, discovering methods of doing it, and figuring it out in some way by pushing ahead.
It’s actually laborious, and I want it have been much less painful at instances. Maybe we’ll discover some extra assist within the photos to return. However we’re additionally so decided to maintain on telling radical tales and telling them on this approach, the place we now have flexibility, the place we will belief no matter we predict is true for the story and go forward with that, even when it appears completely inconceivable.
I’m not craving to do an enormous, big-budget film. I really like the intimacy, freedom, and agility of those tasks. It makes for very particular photos, and it permits for a specific kind of course of. After all, there are some bigger-budget movies I really like—like “The Lovers on the Bridge,” famously one of the vital costly movies in French historical past. I don’t know what it made on the field workplace, and who cares? It’s a masterpiece, and I’m so glad it exists. I don’t imply to throw shade in that route.
My course of includes working with a small group of individuals I collaborate with; that’s actually vital and thrilling to me. If I can hold that very same tradition, that very same creative freedom, and that very same agility whereas increasing the group, and if I additionally know that I will attain a bigger group of individuals with a specific story, then maybe I can add extra to it financially. However I’d simply need everybody to really feel prefer it is smart.
“The Testomony of Ann Lee” is now in theaters, by way of Searchlight Footage.
